Mentorship and Hackathons for Professional Development with Edit Kapcari

Edith Kapcari [00:00:00]:

And there, it was my first hackathon experience. I was completely stressed out. I was girl number three out of 120 participants. So it was very scary at the beginning, but I said, I don't have any expectations. I will not win because I have a winning culture. Let's say I'd like to win. There I said, it's okay. Even if I don't win, the numbers are not good for me here, but let's just enjoy it.

Edith Kapcari [00:00:25]:

And it ended up to be a very, very nice experience. We managed to be in the top eight. And next year, we won first place. I went again because I love the adrenaline of deadlines and hackathons and everything squeezed in forty eight hours.

Neil Benson [00:00:39]:

Today, and welcome to Practice Leading, a podcast for emerging and curious practice leaders of Microsoft partner businesses. If you're anything like me with an unquenchable thirst for improvement and zero tolerance for BS, you've come to the right place. Hi. I'm Neil Benson, and this is my personal invitation for you to join me on my own journey of discovery. Together, we'll learn from innovators and investors, executives and entrepreneurs, business leaders and business coaches that have already left their stamp on the Microsoft community and those that are exploring new and smarter ways of building their businesses. Whether it's groundbreaking innovations, hiring high performing teams or the sheer force of will to disrupt our industry, each episode is a masterclass from the trailblazers who have already achieved significant success. Find practice leading on YouTube or visit practiceleading.com and learn from the mentors you wish you had earlier in your career. Good day.

Neil Benson [00:01:38]:

Today, I'm learning from Edith Kapcari. Edith is the head of solutions development at Orbis SE in Germany, where she's built a career over the past eight years. She started there as a software engineer and progressed through a number of individual contributor and then into leadership roles. Edith has some experience and perspectives on being a great mentor and coach to the people in her team that I was keen to learn from. We cover the importance of soft skills such as communication and collaboration for your career progression and how Edith's unique approach to mentoring and goal setting drives team success. We talk about her strategies for aligning individual and team goals through regular one on one meetings. Throughout our conversation, Edith shares her journey from her proactive leadership during COVID to winning competitive hackathons and how those experiences helped her leadership approach. She offers invaluable advice on delegating tasks, fostering a culture of constructive feedback, and empowering her team members.

Neil Benson [00:02:36]:

It also touches on her belief in continuous learning, balancing practical skills with certifications, and the importance of more female voices in tech, three things which we both agree on. Speaking of which, I'd love to learn more from female leaders in tech. Please get in touch if that's you or there's someone you'd recommend. Great to have you on on the Practice Leading podcast. Thanks so much for joining us. I'm just about to hire probably another four or five early career power platform professionals, people with maybe zero experience or a year, maybe two years of experience, and they're gonna need great mentorship. You've got a great background. I know you're very passionate about mentoring, new team members.

Neil Benson [00:03:16]:

What what's your secret?

Edith Kapcari [00:03:18]:

Thanks, Neil. This is a very interesting scenario, and it's a scenario that I was tackled a lot in the beginning of this position. And when I was preparing, for example, for an interview when recruiting new people, I was thinking what are the type of questions or the things I want to get out of this out of this person when I'm done with this interview. And most of the time, it was not about putting the right technical question. It was about understanding if the person is a fit. Does the person fit to what I'm looking for? And the dream team that I'm wishing to build because it was, starting from zero or, let's say, starting from one or two people. We were two people in the team, and the goal was to expand it. And the features I was looking for were people who are not scared to learn, to improve, who are continuously trying to understand what's my purpose, what am I good at, how can I improve what I'm doing well, and, what are the things and the tools I need to in order to progress and to improve and to be a better version of myself compared to how I was, let's say, one year ago? So this was one of the features that I was focusing at from the beginning on.

Edith Kapcari [00:04:28]:

And I think when building or trying to mentor a team, it's very important to understand, where are you at. Like, what are the goals? What are the goals of the person that you are trying to mentor, and what do you want to reach together? One of the qualities a good leader has is also understanding the potentials of the person in your team. What are the potentials of this person, and how can you both collaborate and work towards reaching those potentials, reaching the goals that will, at the end of the day, make everyone happy? The person will be happy. The customer will benefit from this expertise and these rich potentials. So this is one of the main things I focus, understanding them, listening them, and trying to understand together what is our short term or long term goal in order to reach these potentials.

Neil Benson [00:05:17]:

You mentioned goal setting there. It's not a strong point of mine. I'm pretty good at setting goals for the business. But when it comes to helping my team set personal goals, I kinda leave it up to them. What do they want to do? What do they want to achieve? I think they're expecting me to set their goals for them. Where how do we meet in the middle so that they can set themselves a goal that aligns to where I wanna take the business as well? How do you marry those two things together?

Edith Kapcari [00:05:44]:

That's a great point, but it's also not my way of tackling it. I don't wanna be goal oriented. Goals are very important but are not the most important part. And, of course, it's very important that people are hurt. Like, I have heard and I know what they think that they can do best or where do they see themselves, but let's be sincere in this direction. Nobody knows where you will be at in one year or five years. I think this is the most abused question, which has always at 99, I guess, wrong answers because we don't know where we are going. We are some of a lot of things that happen.

Edith Kapcari [00:06:21]:

Like, what I will be in six months, one year will be some of a lot of social, political, privately driven facts that will push me towards the person that I will be in these six months, and this is something that happens with everyone. So it's not the goals, but it's understanding. I want to know from you, for example, where do you see your potential? Where do you see your values? What do you think that you are good at? So that I know what I need, and I try to map what I need with where do you see yourself. And when we start working together, it's never something that I know from the beginning on. I'm not a genius. I cannot immediately figure out where you are you great at, but we work with each other. We have a rhythm of working with each other. For example, we have weekly one on ones.

Edith Kapcari [00:07:04]:

When we sit together, I ask how was your weekend? What did you enjoy doing? What are you struggling with? What is stressing you out? How was this project? Was was stressful in the project? What did you wish you had more in a project? And all these type of factors help me or help the conversation to understand if you are going in the right direction, if we set reachable goals and, goals that make sense, or if we need to perhaps tackle some areas that we did not prioritize, might be very important, where you can excel at and can then bring the value in the project you are at in the future project. Perhaps the skill sets that you might be better at, with a bit of support and improvement might be a great benefit to a project that we will have in future, perhaps not the one that we have now or the one that we are now. I might have to bring

Neil Benson [00:07:53]:

in another type of person who

Edith Kapcari [00:07:55]:

is more suitable for that. So it's I think it's a journey, but the journey which is based on a clear and transparent communication. And when we talk, we understand a lot, and I think we understand especially when we talk on trusted space where you can tell me about your weekend, and I can learn more about the things that impact you and that make you more focused, perhaps be more productive, which are very important to push so that you have more of those good moments where you feel in your element and doing the things that you enjoy.

Neil Benson [00:08:27]:

For you or the people on your team, are the goals always around learning, training, certification, or other other broader goals that you can agree on together as well that are more esoteric or more open minded than than just the classic, I need to achieve my PL 900 by the end of the quarter. There must be some better goals you can share some examples of.

Edith Kapcari [00:08:51]:

Yeah. Let's hope they are good goals. So we have, let's say, meeting where we sit together and we think about the things we want to reach in terms of quantitative things and also qualitative things. Quality and what you deliver is very important for all always overall, but also, of course, in my team. So this operational excellence is very important goal. And in this direction, we focus on what you'd like to improve this year, where do you think that you need a bit more, practical experience and perhaps project experience so that you can better improve the skill set. And for us, it's very important to learn by doing. Certificate, it's interesting, having it hanging in your office, but if we want to talk only about it, it does not measure any skill.

Edith Kapcari [00:09:39]:

The process is interesting because you are trying to reach something, and methods of sitting down and reaching a goal and working under stress and under a deadline are also things that benefit you. But at the end of the day, in terms of skill sets, it's not that you have a big gained knowledge in my experience and what I have seen. We have those because I also like people to say that I have this minor goal that I have to do sometime. I mean, sometimes you also have to have these things that are disturbing somewhere in a corner of your mind, which don't prove a lot of stuff, but it's good to have because they teach other stuff like working with deadlines and this type of, mini stress somewhere. But on the other side, we focus a lot in things that you might improve, for example, new topics that you might want to tackle. It's very interesting to be in this Microsoft ecosystem and space because that never gets boring. You always have new topics that you could learn and improve in order to then bring them in, projects. Of course, we also have a lot of, soft skills depending on your current role and where do we see together as a team you evolving, like me and you, we're sitting together and we see a plan for your, long term future, let's say.

Edith Kapcari [00:10:47]:

And in order to reach that role, which is clearly specified, there are some things that need to be achieved in terms of skill sets, for example, communication and how do you collaborate and work with, customers, and what do you provide, what do you bring on the table. So a lot of soft skills that are very, very important, we talk about those, we talk about how you performed, and we talk about how they need to be shaped and improved in order to reach that next step, if that's the step you still want because people change and, desires change. You might want something else in the future compared to what we talked. But with this framework, we can make sure that we are moving towards the soft skills and also towards the qualitative skills.

Neil Benson [00:11:32]:

I know that Orbis, I think you you take a an agile approach for a lot of your projects, that we also practice as well. When we take the scrum framework, it's the team together achieves an outcome, delivers a release, and delivers a product into production, and we hold the team accountable. But But whenever I sit down and do a one on one, I have to look at the individual, and it's quite difficult for me to know what the individual's contribution was whenever the team met its goal or didn't meet its goal or had a hard time meeting its goal. If you're not working with all of your team members every day very closely, how do you get a realistic sense of somebody's individual contribution and their performance, if you can't see it?

Edith Kapcari [00:12:13]:

I must say I don't work in projects with my team because I'm more involved in the beginning part of trying to win the project and staffing it, and then in the background support if needed. What helps a lot are these one on ones that I have every every week. We sit together and we see what are we prioritizing this week, what were the blockers of this week, in which projects are you at, what is the current state? For example, I put questions, what are the current, stress points, for example, in the project? I think it's very important to be very well networked in your company so that you know everybody, not just your team, but also other people in your team. It's difficult. It's challenging, but, it's highly important because then you also build a sense of, okay. What type of skill sets do we have in this project? Where do I, as an outsider, see a problem coming? And how can I support my person coming from my team to perhaps communicate some things in their project team that could help them to tackle these problems that are not currently seen but can come in the future? So I think communication is very important, and these type of meetings help me to see these things and give some advice. So still, I'm in the position of mentoring and giving advice which might be taken or not taken. And then we talk how it went.

Edith Kapcari [00:13:31]:

Did the problem happen or didn't it happen? Did you communicate it? Did you feel, for example, sometimes I mentor and I give advices. If you have a very young colleague, they might feel shy in the beginning to bring in these tips. So I see that it didn't happen or I already know that it will not be brought in the project team. I might communicate with somebody else who is another colleague, for example, and say, hey. I would say that you need to take care here and there, for example, consider these points. And then I also like when I see evolving. Like, they feel more comfortable to bringing in, their knowledge, to sharing their experiences, to say, hey. I I think that it's better to follow, for example, f b instead of a.

Edith Kapcari [00:14:12]:

So it is very important to have this one on ones and talk openly, and, also, I appreciate when they are very transparent in bringing in everything without finger pointing, because this, helps the whole, project team, helps everybody. And at the end of the day, the customer is also happy.

Neil Benson [00:14:29]:

So are you meeting everybody in your team every week, or does it depend, you know, do some senior people need less regular check ins maybe once a month or something, or do you meet weekly with everybody?

Edith Kapcari [00:14:39]:

Yeah. I have a thirty minutes weekly, which is not a lot, but it's, enough if you come prepared. So we work with Luke, and, we have representation of, the current active projects and also the status of the ones which are a bit pending or where we are more on a support mode, internal projects because we also work internally, and also other individual goals that need to

Neil Benson [00:15:00]:

be reached. For example, a PL 600, exam that needs to be taken and so on.

Edith Kapcari [00:15:05]:

So we fill in, I fill in, the person fills in, we meet together, and we see where we are at, what are we prioritizing this week, and what is the big issue or blocker that you would like to discuss with me that we can help fix? Of course, I try to be there. So it's not just a word, but I try to also show that I am there for you. If you want to talk at, 06:00 in the afternoon because you had a very stressful day and you feel like you are overworked or you feel that you are stuck somewhere and you want another perspectives, then I'm there for you. It's not just that you have only this window to talk to me and I'm an existent. Try to be there. If I see, for example, that you are going or are having a a stressful situation, then I check-in during the week. Hey. How is it going? Do you want to talk? Can I help? Because this networking helps because I can also bring, for example, another colleague that I know it's great in that with more expertise can help, can support.

Edith Kapcari [00:15:59]:

At the end of the day, we are a big Auris team, and, I guess one of the biggest things that differentiates us from other companies is this shared knowledge and being there for one another.

Neil Benson [00:16:11]:

How many people are in Orbis now? How big is the company?

Edith Kapcari [00:16:15]:

We are an SAP and Microsoft Gold partner, so we are about 1,000 people.

Neil Benson [00:16:21]:

Oh, wow. Okay. That's a bit bigger than Superware. We're 20.

Edith Kapcari [00:16:25]:

I try to be integrated in the Microsoft, world, like, at least know people that are very tightly connected to what I do so that I can immediately grab to some knowledge and great people if I need to, but, it's it's difficult, of course, to keep track of all people.

Neil Benson [00:16:43]:

I was, I was reading about Jensen Huang, who's the CEO at NVIDIA, or the number of direct reports he has. He has I I can't remember. I heard two numbers. It's either 60 or 80 people report to him. And his philosophy is that he recruits the best minds in the world, and they need almost no supervision. Obviously, they use a lot of AI to do a lot of them simple managerial tasks. So, you know, approving time sheets and approving holiday leave requests and all of that's all completely automated. But I I just can't imagine having 60 or 80 direct reports.

Neil Benson [00:17:16]:

Do do you think there's a a limit to the number of people you can look after at once?

Edith Kapcari [00:17:21]:

Absolutely. The number should be ideally seven, eight. When it's more, then you have to see if you need to, introduce a different type of organization. For example, you have, you might have, three direct reports, and they have smaller teams. And then you have, for example, not so often also the chance to communicate also with people who are not your direct reports, but, people you would like to be connected to and talk to. Like, let's say you have one on ones with your direct reports on a weekly basis, and then you have monthly, chance to connect also to the, other people. My way of leading, which is I'm trying to build it now, let's say, my own way based on things I liked from colleagues, from my leaders, from my family, from my friends because I'm connected and I'm surrounded, sorry, from great people. So a lot of space to learn from.

Edith Kapcari [00:18:18]:

It's not the spreadsheet part, and I don't agree with the fact that I am hiring the top mind and this person doesn't need leadership or doesn't need, a big, management. I think everybody needs in a direction. We are not great in every aspect of our way of working. We might be great, and I have, for example, geniuses in my team who really come up with solutions even in situations where you think it's impossible. They might need they struggle with minimal things, like or with things which or with other things, actually, not minimal. Nothing is, of low importance. Everything is very important. They might struggle with some other skills like social skills or, for example, being all the time in permanent meetings might stress them, and you have to find out how to is it important, how to tackle this so that they might have less meeting or they might have more efficient, ones, or how can they sort of overcome this stress and have efficient meeting at the end of the day.

Edith Kapcari [00:19:17]:

So I think we are not great in every skill, and we need, at some point, some management no matter how good you are. Perhaps, it's a diff complete different legal when you work with those people who are really the top top in what they do. Never experienced that. But in my opinion, there is always needed leadership, and I'm not a leadership of Excel sheets.

Neil Benson [00:19:38]:

You had a background as a developer. Is that right? So so you've gone from an individual contributor, through a technical career path into a managerial leadership position. That's that's really common. Lots of people take that career path, and are very successful with it. Another way I'm thinking about doing it for Superware is hiring a talent manager who doesn't have a background as a Power Platform consultant, but is partly responsible for recruitment, partly responsible for some of the HR policies and vision and things, but also being that mentor or career coach for the entire team, whose job it is is just to to coach everybody, to help them set goals, help them track their progress towards those goals, connect them with people they can learn from who have got some expertise in facilitating great meetings or, designing great solution architecture solutions. Have you seen that model work where there's instead of having people who've come from a technical background into management, just hiring somebody who's a great people manager with no technical background. Have you ever seen that work?

Edith Kapcari [00:20:40]:

It depends what's your goal. If you have to hire a lot of people and you have to build big teams, then perhaps, your framework might work. Where I might see a bit of a challenge is that the person doesn't speak the language. If I'm trying to understand what is stressing you out and I don't understand that, for example, you are five hours debugging something, you know, you're stuck in finding a bug, and what you might need is just a good sleep and a fresh perspective. The other person will try to perhaps bring in people and say, hey. What's your problem? Let's try to figure out and will Google or Bing a lot and trying to find out. You have to speak the language sometimes, and I think you understand it better when you are coming from those struggles where you had to deal with those things yourself and, you understand what the person is going with. I think I'd be more of a fan of a person that has already walked the area, and I'm not a lot of a fan of a person or a leader or a mentor that sends people to places they have never been.

Edith Kapcari [00:21:38]:

I did not really call this properly because I, read it somewhere. I don't remember anymore where I read it, but I don't think that a good leader is a person that sends people somewhere where they haven't been themselves.

Neil Benson [00:21:51]:

I appreciate that perspective. I think there are also jobs that the business needs to have done that I will never do. I'm never going to be a chartered accountant who can run the books. I'm never gonna be a marketing expert who can lead massive marketing campaigns. But I'm gonna end up recruiting those people and ask them to do that job even though I've never done it myself. I've done a, you know, I've maybe done a bit of bookkeeping or put together an email campaign, but it's a whole different world of expertise that we need to hire. But I appreciate what you're saying that a good manager has done some of that knowledge work before, has been a developer who can understand the struggles and and, some of the the issues that one might encounter in that career path.

Edith Kapcari [00:22:30]:

Let's find the golden, middle. At least I try to understand what you are going with. For example, if I say, hey, Neil, what's struggling? You these days, I've seen that you are have not been so focused, and I really feel that there is something stressing you out. Tell me. Make me part part of your problem. Like, try to explain to me even if I don't understand because, of course, I totally agree with you. I'm now at a level where I don't really fully understand what my team is going with or what my team is creating because they are really good at what they do, and I'm very proud of that. But at least I'm there, and I, show some space.

Edith Kapcari [00:23:06]:

I want to understand so that I can help in any capacity. I'm sure that it won't be a big help, but at least I can somehow perhaps, bring this outer perspective and try to help you overcome this, struggle and, move on. For example, as I said before, sometimes I just say, hey. Turn your PC down. Tomorrow, it's a new day. Start with a fresh perspective. And a lot of times, it helps. And it's nothing big.

Edith Kapcari [00:23:32]:

I mean, I did not give you a technical advice. It's just you are too deep dive, and you might need to go one step back, see the big picture, relax.

Neil Benson [00:23:41]:

Yeah. Yeah. Even a coach who can help people do that would be very valuable. How did you get started as a moving from an individual contributor to a management role? Can you remember the day? And what were your challenges, you know, the the first year in that role? What what was it like?

Edith Kapcari [00:23:57]:

I would say that formally, I'm a COVID leader. I took the role when, COVID hit. I think people or my colleagues saw it earlier because I was uneasy. Like, I started the job. It was everything new to me, very fresh in the Microsoft, sphere. I started in 02/2017. I didn't know anything about business obligations, CRMs, and so on. And they saw that I was all time criticizing things, like this could be done better, this could be done here, and here we are not, as we were supposed to.

Edith Kapcari [00:24:26]:

Why don't we do this? Can we try this out? I was all the time coming up with these critics. The good part is that they were not just critics, but I I was also providing ways how to improve, which is also, helpful. And I participated in a hackathon, at Microsoft. Microsoft organizes hackathons with their partners in an annual basis, Microsoft Germany. And there, it was my first hackathon experience. I was completely stressed out. I was girl number three out of 120 participants. So it was very scary at the beginning, but I said it was very nice because I said I don't have any expectations.

Edith Kapcari [00:25:04]:

I will not win because I'm a I have a winning culture. Let's say I'd like to win. There I said it's okay. Even if I don't win, the numbers are not good for me here, but let's just enjoy it. And it ended up to be a very, very nice experience. We, managed to be in the top eight and top eight team. Next year, we won first place. I went again because I love the adrenaline of deadlines and hackathons and everything squeezed in forty eight hours.

Edith Kapcari [00:25:33]:

And when I came back, I talked to my managers, and I shared my experience how it was, and I said it was awesome. And I got to experience this Power Platform new thing, which is going to become a big thing. What about trying it out and seeing how it works and perhaps could be something also for our customers? And they said, yeah. They said, let's try it out. Like, it's your task to see if you can push it forward, if you can build a team, if you can make it a lucrative business process or business team, let's say, for us. So I was given the space, and it started with hackathon. Like, we organize a hackathon to bring everybody on the the basic knowledge, let's say, of our platform. And then it moved on with, you have this task.

Edith Kapcari [00:26:16]:

If you get it flying, congratulations. And they did not put a lot of pressure. Like, if it you fail, then it will be a big, drama. So I really appreciated having this safe space at Orbis, which I think it's not I don't take it for granted. I don't think it's state of the art also in other companies. And it started with one colleague, like, we were we were in two, and we started as a small team. And then I grew eventually. In the beginning, it was a lot of unknown but very exciting because I really love new beginnings.

Edith Kapcari [00:26:47]:

It gives me the chance to do things my way and start completely fresh and with new and creative ideas. We really love new beginnings, but, of course, there were a lot of, lessons learned. And one of the biggest lessons I learned early on, which I would also appreciate to have known or learned earlier, I was told, but it's best learned when you struggle yourself with it. It was delegating and not assuming that you are faster and more qualitative if you do the thing all everything yourself. It's very important to delegate, to trust people that they will do, it perhaps better than how you think you could do things and give them the space to grow. It's not important for you to excel. It's important to have a team that is growing to have to empower other people to do things. There's a big shift from my personal goals or where do I see myself in six months to what can I be for other people, like, being there for this team?

Neil Benson [00:27:47]:

I love that. There's a couple of good great lessons in there. So I love the the hackathon experience you had seemed so positive, and, you find it to be a great accelerant for your learning that whenever you wanted to build a Power Platform practice, you decided to bring up a hackathon inside and use that to kick start your your practice. That's a great idea. I've only been involved in one or two at much smaller scale than it sounds like the ones you're talking about. But they're they're such a lot of pressure, and you're forced to learn and adapt really quickly. So I love that approach to building a practice is to run a hackathon. And then this challenge we all have of of learning how to delegate because, you know, until I was leading a business, I I was the one being delegated to all the time.

Neil Benson [00:28:30]:

I was the one you know, my manager was asking me to do work on on their behalf. And suddenly, I have to do that, and it's sometimes really hard to let go, and trust other people to to help, pull the business along. It is it's been great, catching up with you and getting to know you a little bit better. So thank you so much for joining us. If people wanna connect with you and follow your work, where can they go to find out more about, about what your work in the community?

Edith Kapcari [00:28:54]:

So first of all, thanks a lot for what you do because I got the chance to experience a bit what's the goal with this new and, fresh experience that, you are, starting. It's awesome that you are doing this for the community and also for the female community, which needs to be more heard. Let's say, we don't, hear a lot of, female roles, and we don't, see a lot of female, leaders in the space. And it would be great if we have more. If people want to connect to, with me, they can find by just fooling my name. I'm mostly LinkedIn, not so much in Twitter lately for reasons that you might, know. Somehow I don't really like a lot of space here. But LinkedIn is a very good place where you can connect and DM me.

Edith Kapcari [00:29:46]:

I'd be very happy to connect with people whom think that they could share topics that might be of, interest and value.

Neil Benson [00:29:55]:

Yeah. So we'll make sure we link to your LinkedIn profile in the show notes. Thanks for joining us again. It's been great to catch up. Thanks to Edith Kapcari for joining me today on practice leading. If you wanna connect with Edith, you'll find her LinkedIn link in the episode description. My takeaway, for this conversation with Edith today are, the importance of mentoring when it comes to fostering a culture filled with curious minds and continual learners. Intuitively, I think we all know the importance of coaching our team members, but I'll admit, I struggle to prioritize that time given the other responsibilities I have to nurture sales and resolve customer escalations and participate in recruitment and handle operations.

Neil Benson [00:30:38]:

So I'm gonna have to refocus my time on mentoring. Outside inspiration. I admire Edith's perspective on reading biographies of people who persevered through adversity and using that to learn about leadership. I think there's also merit in traditional management content as well as those kind of biographies. So I'm gonna broaden my learning through reading more biographies from my local library. And finally, hackathons as a learning tool. I love how Edith used strategic hackathons as a way of rapidly learning about something new. Dropped into a team, given a challenge, and expected to solve the problem in a very short space of time.

Neil Benson [00:31:16]:

I've I've got to admit, I've barely participated in any hackathons. I've been a facilitator at one and in the back of the room at another. I'm gonna look for more opportunities to participate. Let me know what you learned from this episode in the comments on YouTube or on the practice leading page on LinkedIn. I hope you enjoyed this practice leading episode and found it just as inspiring as I did. If you did, please remember to hit subscribe or follow so that you don't miss our next episode. Until then, keep experimenting.