Insider Secrets to Succeeding as a Microsoft Partner with Chris McNulty

Chris McNulty [00:00:00]:

Sometimes ignoring Microsoft is the right approach, and sometimes it's the worst possible approach. And that really can vary by the size of the account. Because if you're dealing with a small to mid market organization, responsibility for that account may be plugged to someone who's looking at lots of different accounts at the same time. It's the larger accounts where the Microsoft team needs to have confidence. The sellers, no matter what, are somewhat coin operated. Whatever is on the scorecard, fiscal year to fiscal year to fiscal year is what motivates them, which provides an opening.

Neil Benson [00:00:33]:

Good day, and welcome to Practice Leading, a podcast for emerging and curious practice leaders of Microsoft partner businesses. If you're anything like me with an unquenchable thirst for improvement and zero tolerance for BS, you've come to the right place. Hi. I'm Neil Benson, and this is my personal invitation for you to join me on my own journey of discovery. Together, we'll learn from innovators and investors, executives and entrepreneurs, business leaders and business coaches that have already left their stamp on the Microsoft community and those that are exploring new and smarter ways of building their businesses. Whether it's groundbreaking innovations, hiring high performing teams, or the sheer force of will to disrupt our industry, each episode is a masterclass from the trailblazers who have already achieved significant success. Find practice leading on YouTube or visit practiceleading.com and learn from the mentors you wish you had earlier in your career. Today, I'm learning from Chris McNulty, head of markets at San Azure Alliance, an advisory agency specializing in strategic transformation.

Neil Benson [00:01:38]:

For almost ten years, Chris worked at Microsoft as a senior director of product marketing across a range of products, including Microsoft three six five, SharePoint, OneDrive, and Stream. Chris also held CTO roles at Dell and Quest Software. In today's episode, Chris delivers a master class in how to succeed as a Microsoft partner, whether you lead a systems integration or an independent software vendor practice. Our conversation covers a range of topics, understanding Microsoft's multifaceted structure and the significance of building relationships with Microsoft sellers. We cover the importance of maintaining product positioning and finding niche markets. Whether you're part of a global systems integrator or running your own business and looking to strengthen your Microsoft partnership, this episode is a gold mine of strategies and real world advice. Chris, welcome to Practice Leading. I'm honored to have you on the show because for the first time, I get to find somebody who's been inside the East, who's worked at Microsoft, thankfully, we're there for nearly ten years.

Neil Benson [00:02:37]:

And you've got a unique perspective on the successful or the characteristics of successful Microsoft partners. Thanks for joining us.

Chris McNulty [00:02:44]:

It's great to be here, Neil. Thanks thanks for giving me the chance to speak here. Yeah. I've had an interesting career. If you can take it back prior to Microsoft, you know, I came from the channel. I've spent, as I think a lot of the audience has, a goodly chunk of my career working with Microsoft technologies. And so I was the practice lead at a boutique sized system integrator on the East Coast prior to joining, what at the time was Quest Software and then Dell after the acquisition as general manager and CTO. That's where I got my MVP cred from all of those conferences and speaking and writing and blogging, but really led me to Microsoft.

Chris McNulty [00:03:23]:

And I've spent the better part for the of the last ten or so years as one of the senior directors of product marketing for our content management portfolio, which includes things like, SharePoint and OneDrive and parts of Viva and Syntex and Copilot. So kind of being able to look at the inbound and outbound side of how we build product, how we shape it and deliver it through all the different conduits. And so that's kind of been my role there. And now I am chief markets officer at, Synergy. We are a boutique consultancy. We focus on business strategy and design work. We don't do implementation. We don't do delivery.

Chris McNulty [00:04:05]:

We don't do development. Of course, technology is a piece of it, but sometimes we're helping with things like marketing or things like top line business strategy.

Neil Benson [00:04:13]:

Okay. Are are you coaching Microsoft partners and and systems integrators today or mostly end customers?

Chris McNulty [00:04:19]:

It's a mix. I would say it's actually been more of late ISDs who are trying to formulate a product idea and then know how to explain it in a way that a Microsoft customer cares. And also, what does Microsoft care about? And that's something that, you know, I think is it's important to remember that Microsoft is a multifaceted beast. You said the belly of the beast before. And there's a lot of different audiences and different places to plug in. And you have to understand that it is multifaceted. Pick where you're going to connect. You know, I can't tell you how many times at Microsoft.

Chris McNulty [00:04:56]:

While I was at Microsoft, my buddy Ian Story in engineering and I set up what is now the content AI

Neil Benson [00:05:00]:

partner programs. That is all

Chris McNulty [00:05:00]:

of the content partner programs. That is all of the content management partners and things with AI and about 350 different partners. It's quite a big group. And a lot of times, newer partners would come to us and say, we have something wonderful. We would like you to tell the Microsoft field about it. Now at Microsoft, the field, based on how you count it, is about 40,000 people. And

Neil Benson [00:05:28]:

And how many geographies?

Chris McNulty [00:05:29]:

How many geographies, how many sectors, even if you're just gonna focus on the m three sixty five slash modern work pool. There's a lot of people in a lot of roles. And if you don't know these as a Microsoft partner, like, study up in your acronyms. Know the difference between the ATU and the STU. Know that the MTC has become the MIH. But there's you know, within the world of TSPs and SSPs and PDMs and all, people have a lot of different roles. And with those roles, they have a lot of different stakeholdership. So first and foremost, there is no easy button to the Microsoft field.

Chris McNulty [00:06:04]:

Internally at Microsoft, if you own a product and you want it to go out there and get successful, like, my team and I, we are marketing internally to Microsoft sellers, and they're inundated. Like, some of the emails that they get internally, like their, you know, weekly product update, there'll be a 200 links, and most of those don't get tended at all.

Neil Benson [00:06:25]:

I never thought about that way of of, internally promoting a product to the to the fields in that group. That's that's fascinating a way of looking at it.

Chris McNulty [00:06:32]:

Well, it gets to the distinction between the STU and the ATU or the specialist technology units and the account technology units. Stews are striped by technology and also by region and by industry. And so they have a particular patch. So people who are looking at productivity or teams, or I feel like everyone's looking at Copilot or power or what have you. The account team belongs to, you know, certainly for the middle to large Microsoft customers, they belong to one customer or a small group of customers. And they're there to try to police all the different folks who want to get in on a given account. Microsoft has hundreds, if you look, if not thousands, of separate products that customers can choose from. And so it's a lot for the field to tend.

Chris McNulty [00:07:21]:

It's a lot even at the account level to know what to get in and what to place. So the easiest button that you have as a partner is to make that process easier for a Microsoft seller.

Neil Benson [00:07:34]:

That's a, yeah, fascinating way of looking at it. Today, Superware is an ISV with, 20 people. We're we're building industry applications for an Australian sector called superannuation, which is private retirement accounts. Right? It's $4,000,000,000,000 in the sector, but there's only about a hundred customers. Two or well, four or five of them are enterprise accounts, and the rest are mid market. And figuring out who's who in Microsoft Australia, I haven't cracked that one yet at all. And so we're just happily going straight to the customers, right, trying to sell directly to them, kind of ignoring the Microsoft organization. And we will engage them when there's a great opportunity, and and, we'll just let them know.

Neil Benson [00:08:13]:

But I think we're missing a massive trick there by not understanding who's who and what their pressures are and their challenges and their goals and their targets, and playing a lot easier with them.

Chris McNulty [00:08:23]:

Sometimes ignoring Microsoft is the right approach, and sometimes it's the worst possible approach. And that really can vary by the size of the account. Because if you're dealing with a small to mid market organization, responsibility for that account may be plugged to someone who's looking at lots of different accounts at the same time. It's the larger accounts where the Microsoft team needs to have confidence. The sellers, no matter what, are somewhat coin operated. Whatever is on the scorecard, fiscal year to fiscal year to fiscal year is what motivates them, which provides an opening if you know a Microsoft seller, is to ask them what's on their scorecard. Because the top line items are fairly obvious year over year. It was Teams at one point, and it's e three and e five.

Chris McNulty [00:09:08]:

And, you know, currently for modern work sellers, there's a blend of Copilot, Copilot, Copilot, Copilot, and some e three and e five mixed in. If they're on a data plot or the AI side, they're looking for Azure consume revenue or Mac or how does that stuff get burned down. Understanding that dynamic for Microsoft sellers shows actually that you care and that you're thinking about how you can help them get to their numbers without injecting a whole bunch of deal friction. Because frankly, if you're a Microsoft seller, say you're gonna do a Copilot deal, it doesn't matter on the face of it if there's an ISV who has an amazing Copilot add in. Why do I wanna talk to the customer about that? Because it might be a I don't know them. It might slow things down, so let's just keep it out. And let's just tell the customer Microsoft and Microsoft alone can solve your problem. Now you know that that is not always true.

Chris McNulty [00:10:03]:

In fact, Microsoft internally recognizes. You know, I was part of a lot of these discussions at Microsoft that our customer base is too big and too diverse and too verticalized for Microsoft to actually be able to go and connect value in for customers in that way. So partners are such an essential part of that chain, but you need to be able to present that message in a way that's complimentary to what Microsoft is doing. You can't shred what Microsoft is doing, and you can't ignore it.

Neil Benson [00:10:32]:

Yeah. Okay. There are a couple of Microsoft sellers who I do work pretty closely with in in other sectors. And it's great when we have frank conversations about why they would wanna work with us. We've done great project work in their customer organizations before. They trust us. We've got a good track record. They're happy to introduce us into other customers in the same sector.

Neil Benson [00:10:51]:

So building up that track record of successful delivery, because I imagine, like, the example you gave, you've got an ISV with an unknown track record, that may have a great add in for Copilot, and it's gonna help you retire lots of quota. Fantastic. But they have no reputation, and that represents a massive risk. Right? So, you have to really work hard to establish that credibility and show some success and case studies and, some some good customer references so that you can, satisfy that the the sellers that you're not gonna stuff it up and drag it out and slow things down.

Chris McNulty [00:11:22]:

You know, it was said back in the day when, Microsoft used to have gold and silvers, every year the cost of gold goes up. And so, like, to stay in good stead with Microsoft is hard. If you're a smaller firm, like, Sinister is or or your size or, you know, one of the most coveted things to, like, keep achieving the right statuses is Deepore, being listed as partner of record. And, like, it's it's a really blunt instrument. Like, it doesn't matter if you've got the most impactful solution for the finance group at one of one of your superannuation large clients. Odds are really good. Accenture owns the overall Microsoft relationship and or whoever. Some very large SI or licensed reseller is gonna be in first poll position for that.

Chris McNulty [00:12:06]:

So that can be a disadvantage for some of those ways that you kinda pursue those Microsoft things and designations. But, like, don't lose hope. There are lots of Microsoft programs and, fundamentally, the average customer isn't paying super close attention to the finest details of how many certifications and charters and designations and solution specialties do you have. The fact that you have some, that you have some Microsoft logos and the people at Microsoft would say, yes, Neil is a trusted partner. That's a good place for you to be.

Neil Benson [00:12:43]:

Yeah. I I completely agree. I still get customer, particularly RFPs, asking, you know, are you a Microsoft Gold certified partner? It's like, well, that that, certification hasn't existed for a couple of years. Customers still think about it and ask about it. Those, partner levels were rebadged a little while ago and renamed, and I don't think the market's quite caught up to that yet. But, yeah, like you said, it's a great place for people who don't have all the highest levels of certification. One of the things I would argue, for example, is we're not pursuing a business applications solution designation because to do that, we'd have to sell a lot of licenses. And the folks who sell a lot of licenses are motivated to sell a lot of licenses, and we like to retain a little bit of independence and say, look, you know, you can buy this product and we built that on the Power Platform.

Neil Benson [00:13:25]:

This one built on Dynamics three sixty five, we don't we don't care which one. But if I was motivated by selling licenses, I'd nudge you towards the Dynamics one because it's a lot more there's a lot more revenue associated with that and a lot more margin. So sometimes, they're having a solution designation shows that you're great at selling licenses, but that's not always what a customer needs.

Chris McNulty [00:13:42]:

It's funny. There's a travel writer. I'm not sure if he's as popular down under as he is up here. He's called the points guy. I forget his name. He was was in the New York Times this weekend. He was talking about how he has gotten out of all of his airline elite status because he's like, it's a shackle. He's like, I can get the points to get to first class whoever I want, but I wanna be able to have the freedom to choose the best route to get where I need to go and not just say, I'm gonna change planes in Dallas because that's my preferred airline even though it takes me eight hours longer to get there.

Chris McNulty [00:14:11]:

And I think, actually, the same thing is true for how you compose your own go to market as a partner. You're in the Microsoft ecosystem, right? So you're gonna be Microsoft friendly, but you need to have just enough autonomy that you can bring the best solution forward that you know how when you're dealing with your clients, how to have that trusted advisor relationship, how to be a tiny bit skeptical so that you are gonna get listened to because in fact, that is another one of those things that Microsoft needs. During my years at Microsoft delivering modern work EBCs, it doesn't matter how open I was in trying to be objective about things. I'm in the air with a Microsoft badge and everything is presumed to be one-sided and slanted. And there's some intrinsic bias if you're at Microsoft and doing that. But knowing that, like, the account team could bring a certain partner in to do an evaluation or to help get something unblocked and know it, getting that trust relationship so that Microsoft will know, for the most part, they're gonna do things that are gonna be positive for what Microsoft cares about. They might have enough difference of opinion here and there about, like, whether or not it's possible to coexist with a Salesforce in an account. The answer is yes.

Chris McNulty [00:15:24]:

Of course it is. And Microsoft is gonna want to put every one of its products into every account. I'm a shareholder. I'm glad that that continues. But being able to have the balancing act and in fact it's it's tougher for ISVs than for SIs. Because SI Microsoft doesn't really do systems integration. MCS used to and now the industry solutions group. There's some delivery capability but it's not a a primary motion there.

Chris McNulty [00:15:50]:

Microsoft is really trying to drive consumption or drive seats. The ISV place is something that if you're looking at that, you need to really sit down with your marketing team and make sure that you do understand your messaging and positioning relative to Microsoft and that you're consistent with it. I can tell you that it does get looked at when a partner is coming in with a part of an account team and saying, yes. We're happy to do this. We're happy to get ESIF and help unblock this, and we love Microsoft. Someone will point out a page on their website, which at the same time is saying, Microsoft will never do this, can't be trusted, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. That dichotomy can be toxic to having Microsoft endorse you into these accounts.

Neil Benson [00:16:34]:

We're just actually going through a website refresh at the moment, and I've got six co founders. I've got a lot of opinions about our what our website should look like. One of the sessions that we went through is looking around at some of the more successful Microsoft partners here in Australia. Most of them are systems integrators. We do a lot of SI work, but we're trying to be an ISV first. So we're looking at some of these websites, and they they lean on Microsoft very heavily. Like, there's a lot of product logos on the on the hero section of the first page. Very obvious that their first reason to exist is being a Microsoft partner.

Neil Benson [00:17:05]:

Whereas, we're saying, look, we we've built great industry applications that happen to be on the Microsoft stack, so they're very trustworthy and available and secure and well governed. But we're trying to put our products in that hero position rather than the Microsoft logos. And so it's, it's an interesting way to move forward and how Microsoft centric should our marketing message be. We decided it's a it's a secondary or tertiary quality for what we're trying to present in the website.

Chris McNulty [00:17:31]:

You know, it's a sales philosophy that sometimes gets described as sell sell with, but it's really, like, sell on top of. You know, you're not trying to displace. And it goes back to understanding the folks that you're engaged with at Microsoft. Like, what are they metric on? You have to sort of choose those connection points. And some of it's personal. Some of it is geographic. You know, one of the things I try to coach a lot of partners to understand are some of those different field roles. And historically, the MTCs, Microsoft technology centers, now referred to as Microsoft innovation hubs.

Chris McNulty [00:18:03]:

They can be a more convenient way to get engaged with Microsoft because it's in a fixed geography. You know, there's 43 of them around the world. They tend to have there's a lot that's homogeneous across them, but they tend to have specialties. But keep in mind, their job is their solution architects are there to come in and have customers do two hours, four hours a day or two of envisioning. You know, the days of those innovation hubs or technology centers, they used to be hardware labs if you go back twenty years ago because people would wanna bring in, like, you know, I wanna run an Oracle database on this thing, this deck alpha chip and test this all out with this storage network. And a lot of that is subsumed by the cloud. So that's a place where, frankly, a lot of those solution architects can look at really complex integrations because, frankly, the Microsoft field, despite all of Microsoft's wealth, for instance, I don't mean to pick on Salesforce, but their their reality of a Microsoft seller to do a demo of a power plat integration with Salesforce. Well, Microsoft is not gonna go buy 40,000 licenses of Salesforce to show that, but there's probably a technology center or innovation hub somewhere in the world that has that in a way that they can do those more deep integration dives.

Chris McNulty [00:19:17]:

Those folks live in one place, and they've got a parade of people coming past them. And, like, if you take that approach, what you're hoping for is what I like to refer to as the doctor doorknob question. You go see your doctor, your physical, they check this, they check that, they talk about this, they talk about that. And it's like, on the way out the doors wrapping up, invariably, it's like, you know, have you ever tried reducing salt or this medication or I think you actually might wanna go talk to a specialist. It's that on the way out the door almost thing. You wanna be top of mind because the Microsoft architects, any Microsoft seller, they're in the back of their head cataloging how can they help get the customer where the customer needs to go in a way that's good for Microsoft. And so, you know, there's an evolution. If you're at Contoso Consultants, your first year doing this, no one at Microsoft's gonna know who you are.

Chris McNulty [00:20:11]:

Hopefully, by year you know, after the, you know, first one or two years, you're gonna be on a short list of Microsoft saying, you could talk to these people. You could talk to those people. You could talk to those people. And if you do that, occasionally, you're gonna get the calls directly from Microsoft, like, hey, we're stuck. You know, back in my pre Microsoft days, we used to call this paying the Microsoft tax. Right? So we're in the Northeast, and there'd be accounts that Microsoft did not was not we're not as geographically interested in servicing because it's winter and it's like, it's in Upstate New York. And you need to do a certain number of those. Hey, we'll go in and talk to them even though we might not make anything on the initial conversation because it's a two way street.

Chris McNulty [00:20:50]:

It can't just be that you're bringing Microsoft can't just bring revenue to you. You're trying to bring revenue into Microsoft. And, you know, understand that partnerships are always two ways.

Neil Benson [00:21:00]:

Yeah. I've definitely agreed we've gone to lots of industry conferences that Microsoft will never go to. So we're trying to introduce a Microsoft based solution into these industries and through our ISV product. And we're not expecting Microsoft to ever have a stand, to support our stand, to turn up. Occasionally, we'll see maybe another Microsoft partner, maybe a Salesforce partner or something turn up. But we're definitely flying under that radar, reaching places where Microsoft itself can't get, either because it's the accounts are too small or this sector is too niche or whatever it is. But, yeah, recognizing there's a there's a spot for us there, and it's our job to to bring Microsoft in rather than I think you have a lot of partners, you know, oh, Microsoft never bring us any leads. Well, you're nobody really got rich waiting for Microsoft to bring them leads.

Chris McNulty [00:21:43]:

You can just keep hitting refresh and partner center all day if you want.

Neil Benson [00:21:47]:

Yeah. So going through the innovation hub, that's an interesting idea because we we're getting a lot of questions now about contact center, and those are very heterogeneous environments. Lots of different hardware, telephone solutions that I can't easily demonstrate, without a physical space. So the Innovation Hub would be a great place to to do that in.

Chris McNulty [00:22:03]:

At the end of the day, everyone at Microsoft knows there is no such thing as a 100% Microsoft shop. Even Microsoft is not a 100% Microsoft shop. Not every device is a Surface. Not every piece of software was built in Redmond. And that's true for Microsoft, it's true for Microsoft's customers. So being able to kind of speak with a little bit more latitude to look left and right and be able to build that trusted guidance that this approach is gonna work equally well for, you know, let's say you've just gone through a merger. Like, we can wire this so that we can bring data in from both Dynamics and Salesforce. And so you can coexist with those.

Chris McNulty [00:22:45]:

Because Microsoft is gonna want it all to go to Dynamics, but they don't want it all to go to Salesforce. So coexistence is is another place. Gosh, we're talking about how Microsoft looks internally. The other thing that I think may not be as commonly understood is there are lots of different partner programs, and it matters a lot to whether that program is being driven by the MCAPS organization, by partner marketing, or by the product teams.

Neil Benson [00:23:12]:

Tell me more about this. I don't need MCAPS was the first one you mentioned. I've never heard of that before.

Chris McNulty [00:23:16]:

Microsoft customer and partner solutions. That's the internal acronym for the sales team and especially sales structure and sales management. What people would would think of as the field. I get it and said, well, it's gonna be lots of acronyms. So, like, you know, keep your pencil sharp. You know, if you're a start out SI, you're not gonna be a managed partner. You're not gonna have a solution designation. You know, if you have anything, you're going to be getting a newsletter reminding you that, you know, there's a 2% spiff on Azure consumption that you drive by March 31 or something like that and you can progress and progress through those more sales oriented things But that's never a place where you're going to get engagement into the product teams or into the marketing teams.

Chris McNulty [00:24:01]:

If you were to kinda keep going and growing in through solution designation, you know, eventually rising to manage partner, you'll be at a position where the mic those Microsoft people, if you're running into a thorny technical issue, could bring you in touch with the product teams, but that's pretty rare. Sales is sales. The second group, and frankly, the partner program I ran at Microsoft are product team led. So this is starting with engineering and product management. And, you know, there, you know, the way that, we ran things, you know, it didn't matter very much whether you were 500,000 people or or five people. If you were in the program, you're in the program, and you get that level of engagement. And those programs, if you're in one, it's a little bit like a business focused version of the MVP program.

Neil Benson [00:24:51]:

Right. There's some a lot of similarities there of what I recognize in the MVP program.

Chris McNulty [00:24:56]:

Except it's present company excluded having been on both sides of the MVP equation. There are sometimes folks who are MVPs who, like, incredibly well penetrated and can be really thoughtful about their feedback and their guidance and their suggestions, and that's the vast majority of them. There's always a couple of naysayers who just wanna sit back and say, you're doing it wrong. I would make a different decision. And that perspective, it's not constructive, and it usually gets seen by Microsoft with words like, that's great feedback. Being in an MVP program is not entirely up to you. Microsoft had to select you, but you can be a Microsoft partner. And, like, in doing that, like, be friendly.

Chris McNulty [00:25:40]:

Like, first and foremost, don't substitute your judgment for Microsoft. Make sure that if there's something that Microsoft is doing that is having a negative impact or a or a positive impact, acknowledge it. Put it in put it in customer terms of when this happens, customers can't do that, but that is unblocking these. That's that kind of learning, that product market fit stuff is essential to making those parts of those relationship move. So that's top level. That's usually Redmond driven more than anything else. And somewhere in the middle are partner marketing groups. These are most commonly engaged at products that are getting big but not completely mainstream.

Chris McNulty [00:26:25]:

So something, you know, programs for things like, you know, historically, Teams phone or some of the power plat programs or being able to bring in outside consultants to deliver some of those app in a day workshops when those that was fairly common. And so that's sitting somewhere. It's not a selling role. It's not a product role, but folks who are in partner marketing can also help unblock marketing needs. You know, understanding what people can do. Salespeople can help with dollars. Product based programs can help with access, and marketing programs can help with visibility. And so you have to sort of choose that engagement.

Neil Benson [00:27:04]:

Oh, good. Well, that's a really good way to think about it. So, I'd say today, we've we're not we're not strong in any of those. So that's giving me really some food to to think about. I was gonna ask you about developing product with Microsoft and the temptation to try and fill the white space. Right? There's a gap there that we can address with our application, the Microsoft landscape has got a an opportunity there for us. We can fill it. What are the what are the risks of ISVs always trying to fill white space that Microsoft later comes in and fills with its own product? There always seems to be a risk of just trying to skate a little bit ahead of Microsoft, but but they're coming right behind you.

Neil Benson [00:27:43]:

So the opportunity is very short lived.

Chris McNulty [00:27:45]:

Long time Microsoft partner, Dave Marcus, who used to be in charge of alliances at k two at a expression that's sort of gone out in the ether. Says, being a Microsoft ISV partner is sort of like picking up quarters in front of a steamroller. You know, eventually, it's gonna get there. And so your job is to get as much as you can and be nimble enough to keep moving down the road because it's a steamroller, but it's not moving that quickly, which I thought was a helpful analogy. Microsoft is not looking to put partners out of business. I remember years ago, when I was with that SI in Boston, there was a very small software group, about five people, who had a charting add in for PowerPoint. I remember, you know, it was a question like, is Microsoft watching, you know, watching this? They're gonna are we gonna try to put us out of business? So I'm like and my answer was always, they might, but it won't won't be intentional. It would be accidental, You know? That Microsoft does not wake up in the morning looking for white space to fill.

Chris McNulty [00:28:47]:

And in fact, knowing that white space is going to be filled gives Microsoft more investment clarity at doubling down on the areas that need that level of attention. You know, a great example, of that is the way Microsoft has approached things like electronic signature. The smaller product is one of the ones that I a health champion at Microsoft. So now SharePoint e signature is a decent utility. You can sign a document, send it to someone back and forth. I don't think there's ever going to be. It's just not inside information, but for all the things Microsoft could pay attention to, building up one of these solution spaces to contend with or surpass the capabilities of a DocuSign or an Adobe sign or to let a contract management accelerator get on top of an iCertis. Microsoft could do that if they wanted to.

Chris McNulty [00:29:45]:

But the fact that there's partners who have Microsoft friendly solutions in there makes that just much less likely.

Neil Benson [00:29:53]:

Okay. I hadn't thought about it that way. So a good strong ISV filling a Microsoft customer need is is sometimes good enough.

Chris McNulty [00:30:00]:

Because those complex scenarios, you know, those industry verticals, those are things that Microsoft just doesn't do as well.

Neil Benson [00:30:08]:

One thing that struck me when I had a customer challenge with an Adobe integration. So Satya, and I can't remember the name of the Adobe CEO, had been on stage, strategic partnership, lots of hugs and press releases. At a product level, the integrations weren't great. This customer had a real challenge. The integration was working in a very, very strange way between Adobe Campaign and Microsoft Dynamics. I introduced a GM from the ISV and the Dynamics team who was responsible for that Adobe integration, and she had no idea it worked this way. Adobe had gone and built it without really consulting anybody at Microsoft in engineering. And she was fascinated to find out that the customer had this challenge.

Neil Benson [00:30:49]:

And I couldn't really believe that people a lot of people at Microsoft, particularly in engineering, don't get to meet customers very often. They they don't have an opportunity to go out and visit on-site and spend a lot of time in workshops with customers. A lot of it's done either in in Redmond or, you know, whatever the developer center is for that product, with lots of feedback from the field, from MDPs, from customers, and partners. Yeah. The the opportunities they have to go and speak to customers and listen to their challenges is quite rare. And, would you agree that there's an opportunity there for customers sorry, for partners to introduce engineering into those customers to give them that insight and and help solve those challenges together?

Chris McNulty [00:31:27]:

Absolutely. And you should you know, if you're a partner, you should be thinking about doing that in sort of two tranches. One is feedback by proxy. We have heard from our customers a, b, and c. And a, b, and c can't all be terrible. You know, a should be good, and b and c should be growth areas. Great. And then based on how that's going, it is fair and reasonable to say, you know, would you, engineering person, I can arrange a conversation with this customer if you would like.

Chris McNulty [00:31:55]:

That again, there's a little nuance to it. You know, don't marry up a Microsoft corporate vice president with someone on the help desk. You know, I've seen some of those meetings happen at conferences and it's just sort of, like, everyone wishes it would it's not that it's bad, it's just like there's no connection in the whole arena. So you wanna make sure that you're bringing, you know, in the example you mentioned, let's say you wanna speak to someone who is a principal product manager or a group product manager. Those are folks who manage people who are designing and managing product. And they're close enough to it to care. The person who's in charge of the integration, who's got their hands on the keys somewhat at your customer, those are good people to talk to. Or if it's in an end user level, you can ask, well, would the design team like to get some UX feedback? Because the design teams always are loving chances to go, conduct and do informal or even formal research directly with customers.

Chris McNulty [00:32:55]:

So anything you can do with that that, again, that lends credence to that trust relationship. And especially with the product groups, it's again, I'm gonna draw the analogy to the MVP summit. Being the MVP program is an opportunity, but it's not a delivery. You get to come once a year to the Redmond campus and hear from a lot of product people and make relationships with them. What you do with those relationships in the year in between is up to you. And the same thing is true as a partner. Like, as you're coming to, you know, any of these high moments, whether it's at a, you know, at an ignite or something else, like, what you do with that, you're all getting an opportunity to interface with someone, like, you know, sustain it.

Neil Benson [00:33:40]:

Yeah. It's an opportunity to invest in a relationship, starting the year. One final question, Chris, as we wrap up. I've seen quite a few folks leave Microsoft, particularly those who were were heavily involved in the partner channel and set themselves up as consultants to help partners navigate and deal with the Microsoft partner bureaucracy. Right? Establishing deep or relationships and, handling distribution of licensing and, those kinds of things. Do you think that's a a healthy sign of a a vibrant ecosystem? Or is it just has the whole thing got so complex that partners just can't navigate it themselves? They're gonna have to hire a consultant to step in and do it for them.

Chris McNulty [00:34:20]:

Yeah. I think it's a sign of an overgrown ecosystem. In some ways, almost too healthy. Right? That there's just too much going on that Microsoft's got to got just a data management problem. You know, how Microsoft is what? Even at the corporate level. 700,000, two million organizations who have significant m three sixty five installations. Like, how do you track that? Like, I I am pulling those numbers out of the air. But the reason why it's complex is because the product makes this complex and Microsoft wants to make the usage simple and invests in having the user experience be simple, so the back end gets clunky and kludgy.

Chris McNulty [00:34:57]:

And which is why if something is hard to measure, there might be block grants. That's part of why ESIF exists. If you're a partner who doesn't know what ECIF is, end customer investment funds, that's something that you should be looking at because Microsoft, that's those are funds that Microsoft can make available to help drive something like a pilot program to unblock a deal. And Microsoft has made it easier, by the way, for partners to get ESIF because you no longer have to go through SSPA, Microsoft Supplier Security and Privacy Assurance Program, which was another set of obstacles. So some things are getting simpler, but there is always gonna be some measure of complexity. You know, frankly, it's one of the things that, you know, with with our firm, we're looking more at the messaging and go to market strategy than the specific mechanics of getting into this program and that. And so there's a balance. You know, by nature, we're we're strategy and design firms.

Chris McNulty [00:35:58]:

So, like, getting into the mechanics of partner center renewals, it's great that there are specialists who are covering that.

Neil Benson [00:36:07]:

Good stuff. Well, I hope that anybody who does need that strategy and design work, if they're emerging as an ISV or as a technology partner, but they reach out to you as and tap into your expertise. In the meantime, thank you so much for joining us on Practice Leading. It's been awesome to be here and to learn some of your your hints and tips.

Chris McNulty [00:36:25]:

Yeah. For the audience, if you're coming to conferences, I'll be appearing at the m three sixty five conference in May in Las Vegas and also at the TechCon three sixty five event here in Seattle in June. You you can find me at syno z u r. That's s y n o z u r. I know you'll put it in the show notes. You can also track me down on my personal website, chrismcnulty.net, and you'll find a lot more about things like photography and songwriting there, but you can still it all comes to the same person.

Neil Benson [00:36:52]:

Awesome. Well, I wish I had a chance to meet you at some of those conferences. I've met at the Power Platform community conference is going back to Vegas this year for the third year, but Vegas is not my town.

Chris McNulty [00:37:02]:

It's busy.

Neil Benson [00:37:03]:

Yeah. It's not my kind of city. So I'll wait until maybe they rotate some around some other city. In in the meantime, I'll be there at, MVP Summit. And, hopefully, folks, who listen to this can catch you at the M 365 Conference and the tech conference later in

Chris McNulty [00:37:17]:

the year. Fantastic.

Neil Benson [00:37:18]:

Thanks, Chris. Thank you, Chris, for joining me today on Practice Leading. Chris will be at the m three six five conference in Las Vegas this May and at the TechCon three six five event in Seattle in June. If you wanna connect with Chris, you'll find links to those conferences and Chris's websites in the episode description. I have to admit that Superwire's relationship with Microsoft is kind of the most challenging aspect of our business, whether it's dealing with the time sucking bureaucracy of Microsoft Partner Center or the frustration of trying to close multimillion dollar deals before your Microsoft seller will ever return an email. As a business, we've got a lot to improve here. Chris has given me a vital reminder of what it takes to successfully grow in partnership with Microsoft, not just in spite of them. I heard similar stories from lots of my peers at MVP Summit this March.

Neil Benson [00:38:08]:

So, clearly, it's something I need to prioritize. My key takeaways from today's conversation with Chris were understanding the Microsoft field. Microsoft's this huge organization with a lot of business units and different roles. Successful partners know how to navigate Microsoft. They reach the people that share their goals, and they work alongside them. The role of ISVs, independent software vendors play a vital role in the Microsoft ecosystem. In some product areas like ERP business applications, there's a thriving ISV community. Chris reminded me of the importance of finding the white space and complementing Microsoft's offerings instead of trying to compete.

Neil Benson [00:38:47]:

And Microsoft innovation hubs. Microsoft has made significant investments in things like their executive briefing centers and innovation hubs all over the world. Successful partners know how to well, they discover how to use these facilities to their advantage to help their customers envision and evaluate their offerings. If you've got one of those facilities near you, find out how to use it. You can leave a comment on YouTube or the practice leading company page on LinkedIn, and let me know what you learned from Chris today. I hope you enjoyed this practice leading episode and found it just as inspiring as I did. Remember to subscribe to the practice leading newsletter. You'll get a summary of the key takeaways from each episode and invitations to live events with our guests every couple of weeks.

Neil Benson [00:39:32]:

Visit practiceleading.com and enter your first name and email on the homepage. That's all there is to it. Until next time, keep experimenting.